SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hey Kimmy, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:33

I'm good. How are you, Lou?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

I'm fabulous. And I'm um doing a little work for free, which made me think about the fair trade concept that we were kind of talking about a little bit last week.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Oh yeah. Okay. So you're okay, you're giving it away for free.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Giving it away for free. Why do we give it for free? It's different. Well, it's different now, I think, than when I was younger because I'm I'm taking a calculated risk. And I think that's a big part of we have a lot to talk about today, actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Yeah, we're we're gonna get into the weed.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

We're gonna get into it. So, but so our topic is fair trade, and it is about when to work for free and when not to work for free, why you should work for free, and uh when you're getting taken advantage of and what you should do about it. It's kind of heavy, really.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Let's talk about something fun instead. Let's talk about sloth.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Sloth? What the hell, sloth?

SPEAKER_02 1:31

You know, sloth, like those animals that are so cute and they move so slow, they're like bear, like they move. You you know what a sloth is, loot.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Oh, oh, I thought it was like some sort of zeitgeist or some sort of some sort of trend or something that I was missing.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

If you don't know what a sloth is, our next episode is just gonna be me talking about how you don't know what a sloth is about you channeling your spirit animal, which is a sloth.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Like, hello, the best or the greatest.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Okay, anyways, we digress. What we're really talking about is fair trade and not like what you see on your coffee or on your um chocolate, but actually like working for free, working for trade, like what you know, what your time, the value of your time, because I think as an artist especially, yeah, this is something that gets hugely undervalued and given away for free all the time.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

And um well, I think people have trouble figuring out where the boundaries are.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Do you know what I mean? I think that's where yeah, yeah. So I think that's that's kind of a big part of it. Yeah, but um, but I let me talk about my current situation. I was I was asked to read a screenplay, and you know, that takes time and it's not something I'm directly involved in. It was just sort of like let me take a peek at this thing. So I read it, and it's always tough because it's it needs it was given to me with anticipation of hey, we've got this thing and it's it's done. And from my perspective, being older and more experienced, it it's not done. And so I have to have that conversation. But one of the things that I found within the screenplay was that the premise is spectacular. The execution around the premise was a little weak. Yeah, and so I have to have that talk. But the other thing is that within the premise, I found a really, really, really good story. And so what I'm gonna do is approach the writers and say, look, I've I've got this idea. I think it's a little bit better than the direction that you went. I would be willing to write a treatment for you and for you know partial writing credit, and you guys can fill it out and write it out and see how we go. And it's a delicate balance because I don't want to take anything away from them. And also I want them to understand that that I'm not also trying to take the project away from them, but I'm really passionate about the premise. So I think that is that's a fair trade for me.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Okay, yeah, that's cool. Well, hilariously, a current situation of mine that almost happened. Yeah, I don't know if we talked about this last week because I talked to so many people about this, but anyways, I like randomly got cast in a short film. Did we talk about this?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Oh, you kind of mentioned it, but tell me more.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

So I randomly got cast in a short film, and like I'm not an actress, I don't really want to be an actress. Like acting to me seems like a lot of work. And um, and but you know, my my studio mate is a director and it was doing assistant directing work and she cast me in this thing. And I, of course, without even thinking, I was like, Oh yeah, totally, I could totally be in your short film. Not asking, like, how long is it gonna shoot for? Is there a payment? Like, what what is the script? You know, I mean, I did get the script and the idea, so I knew that, but I was like, I really didn't get any more information. I just was like, oh yeah, my god, totally sure. And then an hour later, just like very big regrets it in because I was like, this week is already so intense that they're shooting for me. Um, I it's uh unpaid. So I'm doing this for my real, which is hilarious because I don't need it for my real because I don't ever want to be an actress. Uh so like all the reasons everyone else is doing it is you know, legit. They're like, we're doing it for the art, and da-da. I'm like, which I'm like, cool, but it's not my art form. Like if I was doing the music for this, that's a different story. That would have been a different story. But I'm like, I'm literally investing into something. And you know, at the end I was kind of like, okay, well, I'll just do it for the experience. But then luckily it got canceled. Then I was like, Did I manifest this? Because I really was like, oh my God, why did I say yes? I just spent an entire day just like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

This is you know, one of those things. But it made me really be like, hey, uh, I am no longer like 22 years old. I don't need to say yes to everything. I don't need to have experience, I don't need to get experience in things that have nothing to do with my life or the art forms that I want to follow. Absolutely. It's really interesting because I think I come from a generation of where you just say yes to everything. Yep, sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Oh Kimmy, Kimmy, you and I are different generations, and we are pathologically yes people.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

We are, we love pleasing the people.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

We do love pleasing the people, and and it probably speaks from insecurities or the French we got going on, but um our parents didn't love us enough. Or maybe they loved us too much. I mean, who knows? I mean, I've given up on trying to figure out where that comes from, but this is why we have have a producer and why we have representation because they're the ones that can say no for us. But it is funny how people will corner us and okay, sure, okay, sure. So I I think you know, one of the things you need to think about is that you need to um, can you take the project on? And I think when you're younger and you're hungry for experience, sure, you could take it on, you could try it out, see how it goes. But when you're older and more experienced, as you and I are, and we both have multiple projects going on, and our days are packed, the answer is it has to be no, unless it's something really, really extraordinary. Extraordinary, exactly. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah, and I think that's like a great, you know, I think that is like great advice. Like, when do you take on a project for free? When do you like even looking? I mean, what you said, I think sometimes people send me stuff to like music to listen to whatever. And if it's like, you know, my best friend, sure, but if it's just somebody I kind of know, it takes time to like really listen to something and give proper feedback, just like it takes time to read a script, it takes time to give feedback. And I think, you know, when I think people kind of sometimes forget that. And so I've had to try to really like just manage expectations once people send me like an album where I'm like, whenever you know, be like, I don't know if I have time to listen to this right now, but um, you know, when I uh do I get back to you or something like that. But it is interesting because I feel like I'm just starting to learn how to say no or how to, you know, kind of stand up for my own time.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah, absolutely right. Well, and one of the things that happens to me often is people like, can you photograph this headshot from here or photograph this thing for me? And you know, I can shoot I can shoot a headshot. You know, we shot together before. I can shoot a headshot really, really quickly because I've done a million of them.

unknown 8:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

And people think that, oh, it's 15 minutes out of my day. And but it's like, no, there's there's so much that has to go into it after it's shot. Like there's now you have 500 photos that you have to edit, and then you have to bring it down to so and then you have to get input on it, and then you have to do the post-production on it. And that's that's the part that kills me. I don't have time for that anymore. And that's why I'm I'm always a no on photography stuff. But when people look at you sort of incredulously and they're kind of like, why can't you do this? Like so quick, it's so quick and easy for you. And I think that's what people don't seem to understand. It's like there's a lot more that goes into it. That the reason it looks easy is because we're good at it, and but it also looks easy because there's a lot that goes in behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Yeah. 100% when do you like how do you decide that you will look or do some work for some? Like, how how do you decide, okay, I am gonna like shoot something for this person or read their script? Like, what is it like that kind of brings you to that point?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

I think it's it if it's a close friend that like if you were to come to me with a project, I'm a yes, 100%. Like you and I, but you know what goes into it. So if it's somebody who's from our industry and they say, look, can you take a look at this thing? They already understand what the ask is, they understand what they're asking me. And so it's like, okay, they wouldn't have asked unless there was they they really believed in what they were doing. So I'm I'm gonna be 100% yes from um somebody who's close to me and who's also from our industry and understands what goes into having whatever the ask is. Um, people who are outside of the industry, I'm almost always a no now because they don't understand what it takes to read a script or or give notes on it, or you know, I mean it's four or five hours. I mean, it's you know, piecemeal and trying to get it done. And and there's always the, you know, oh wait, wait, wait, wait, I give you the wrong copy, do this one, you know, that sort of thing. How many times has that happened to you? Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

It sounds like something I would do, to be honest. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Well, fair point. So, um, so that's kind of where I'm at now. But my 20-year-old self, it would have been much more is this interesting? Is this something I can learn from?

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

What am I gonna gain personally from it? Because I'm not gonna gain anything financially from it. And I'm not going to gain potentially reputation, you know, if whatever the project is blows up, then and you're a part of it, that's good. But I don't think you should ever try to predict that. I there's no way to predict what's gonna hit and what's not gonna hit. So you you need to find the altruism in saying yes. And it's like, okay, I'm gonna learn something. I believe in this person, I'm gonna date this person, maybe. I mean, who knows? And um or this is going to help me in the future. Do you know? Do you remember like the people that you were around in your 20s and everybody's sort of making music at the same time?

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

And you knew the people that like if I help them, I know they'll get me when I need help.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

100%. And I think that that to this day, like, there is I will still do things, I love doing things for trade, you know? Yeah, especially if people don't have money. I love doing trades because I really believe in trade as like a form of payment. Um but it's really important to protect yourself in that too, you know, because if you're just doing like a handshake thing where you're talking over dinner, um, I think it's really important to get that stuff in writing, also, even if it's just an email.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think just like, hey, listen, this sounds great. I'm gonna send you an email about what we talked about and what the expectations are. And it's it doesn't have to be formal or legally, it just has to be like, hey, this this an example of an email I would send to you. It's like, hey, Kimmy, we were at drinks the other day. We talked about me writing or directing a music video for you, and um, and I would just I'm just gonna deliver the video and then you're gonna have it posted and um and edited by somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Oh, great. Okay, perfect. That's and so the expectations sort of sort down in a note or in a text message or something like that. And so that way we can go back to it and look and say, oh, that's right, that is what we talked about.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

And it only takes you being like gasled like three times by different people saying that they they you didn't say they never said that, you know. You're like, you 100% said that, you know, it's like literally we talked about this. It only takes like three times, and then you really it's a lesson that you just never ever or in my case, like many more times than that.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Okay, so let's talk about when when when it's stupid to give it away for free.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

So when it's stupid.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

So something I'm not sure this happens in your world so much, but when I was younger, up-and-coming celebrity or stars, you know, actors were just starting to break, just starting to break, and they needed pictures for something. And this happened also with a director. And it was, and this director went on to win an Oscar. Um, and it was if you do this for me now, when I break larger, I will bring you with me. That never, ever, ever happens.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Name and shame. Who is it?

SPEAKER_00 13:24

No, no, I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. No, little. I'm gonna totally tell you after. Oh my gosh, that'd be horrible. And I I'm not I'm not angry about it because I'm I'm the idiot who said yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Also, I think people think sometimes they're gonna have way more power when they get into power than they do, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Uh I I think that's a part of it. I also think that they got caught up in a machine that is so overwhelming that that they I I think you raise a really good point, actually. That's a really good point. That once you get caught up in the machine and the PR people get involved, life moves really, really fast. And it's gonna go, well, I've got this friend who's gonna no, no, no, no, no, no. And then as you're coming up, you you're not in a position to push back yet. You're not big enough of a star yet to push back. The the director who won on to win an Oscar, that was intentional. He he took advantage of me intentionally. The celebrity, I would say, was she got caught up in a machine.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

And she, you know, and then what are you gonna do? And then when you are big, it's you know, it's too much time has passed, etc. So I think that's you know, it's at that's this is why you have to really take care of yourself. Um, I will say the pictures of the director did nothing for me. The pictures of the celebrity did a lot for me because as she went on to huge fame, she was in my portfolio. So, you know, again, it's a it's a it's a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Who wants to look at a picture of a director? Literally nobody.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Well, okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

I mean, just saying, I'm like, have you seen directors? Like, um I'm sure that the I'm sure the actors' photos were like, wow, beautiful. And with the director, you're like, Well, I'm working with what I got.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Exactly, exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

So no shame.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

No shame, no shame at all. But um, and then another situation that comes up often is if somebody solicits your opinion and says they'll come in and say, Hey, I really need your opinion. I think you're an expert in this stuff, and they will really sweet talk you, and then they will ask you for money.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

That's that happens so often, more often, you're like, Oh, that's a great idea for a film. I think I can get it produced. Um, and if you can front the hundred thousand dollars to get the thing started, um, you know, we can get this thing going.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

And then also the money disappears in your I mean, like the amount of emails I've that was like that where people are like, we love we love your music. And like I we think we can really like do something with it if you front the money. You're like, oh yeah, if I had five thousand dollars, I could do a lot too. Let me tell you. Right. Exactly. Oh, that's that's a good one. Yeah. I mean, I think it's I think that like it's very rare that you should be investing money in somebody else else's creative ideas if you're creative.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

No, if if you're gonna invest money, invest it in yourself.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Yeah, especially when you're like young and don't have a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Exactly right. I mean, if you're gonna put any money into anything, you should be putting it in it's your money, you should be able to watch it. You shouldn't be giving it to somebody else to handle. Yeah, I think that there's a lot of misinterpretation of what that looks like in terms of the fact that oh, I have this business manager now who's gonna take my money and help me with it. Well, if they're not a fiduciary, they're not actually a business manager, and they're just somebody who's gonna throw your money around. That's but there's something that feels good about that because it feels like you've made it even though you haven't made it yet. And and it's it's weird. It's this this industry is so screwed up.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

I mean, and I that's across the board. Like, I feel like for such a long time I was like, I just want a manager, I want a manager. And then I had one manager who was my friend and she was amazing and she really fought for me, but she fought for me because she was my friend and like loved my music. But like for the most part, the managers that I've seen are just like kind of like guiding some a ship that's already sailing, you know. Oh, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. I think I think that they're not they're not the ones like putting putting the speed into the ship. The ship already has speed, and they're just like, oh, let's help you guide this. But I think there is this. Um, I think because we all like grew up watching the same, like, you know, music documentaries, we everyone's like, I just need to get discovered by the manager that's gonna catapult me to fame. And it's like, I think that's like a really old concept. I don't think that happens very often anymore. I think now everyone's just like waiting to see what hits, and then they're like, okay, I'm gonna like attach myself to this. So I think in general, like, you know, I also see so many like pay-to-play managers, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

But I do think that's like an important, important thing to pay to play is bad.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Yeah, anytime anyone is like, yeah, you I will be your manager, but you just have to pay me up front. Like, no, a good manager is always gonna work off of uh commission off what you're already making. But yeah, I really do think like don't, you know, really don't bring anyone onto your team until you cannot do it by yourself.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Because absolutely right, absolutely. Well, and it's it's interesting because I'm reading um uh autobiography of Kim Thyle, who's the guitarist for Soundgarden. And when they got approached by a major label, they were kind of like, I don't know if I want this because they were managing their own money, yeah, they were being smart about it, they had a great community in Seattle, and they they just didn't jump on it. And I am reading that, like, I don't know if I could have done that. Do you know what I mean? That have that kind of discipline. And I think it's interesting because it's like they ultimately did, but it was it was first a no for them, yeah, because they were fine, what they had.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Yeah, I think that's so awesome.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Um let's I'm talking about a couple other dis different situations that I got myself into. Okay. Um, there's a I shot some um some stills for a movie called Enemy of the State, and I went in to go collect my check and drop off film. Um, and I and I gave the producer the contract that he had to sign before he paid me outlining the usage rights of the pictures, saying, Oh, you can use it for X, Y, Z number of years, or you know, basic usage rights type stuff. And he blew up at me. And I just had the biggest lemonade ever because it was a hot day in Los Angeles when I was thirsty. And as he was screaming at me about not having all the rights to do whatever he wanted to with my pictures in terms of advertising and everything else like that, because he was getting paid for a certain amount of promotion, but not full-blown advertising. I was trying so hard not to pee my pants that I was just kind of focused on that. And after five minutes of this yelling goes, Man, you're a tough dude. I'll sign the picture or I'll sign the paperwork and off you go, and here you go. Because most people would cave with that yelling.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

I'm just trying to hold it in.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

I'm just trying to hold it in, man. Like, okay, whatever. So that would but that happens a lot. Um, you get yourself in a situation where um expectations are not talked about beforehand or agreed upon beforehand about usage rights or copyright, and um somebody yells at you and they try to intimidate you into giving you more than they should be getting for the money that you're getting paid. So that's one thing. Um another job I was on, I just had a funny feeling about the job, and so I shot it. It was for a golf clothing manufacturer, and I was able to get a check up front for the advance, and then I got to check the day of the shoot for delivering the final hard drive of the photos. And at the time I just gotten into the director's guild um for TV commercials, and this guy threatened to sue me unless I did color correction. I said, Well, that wasn't a part of the deal that we discussed. And he said, Well, I'm gonna sue you. I said, On what grounds? He goes, It says here color photos in your bid. I said, That doesn't mean color corrected photo. He goes, Well, I we'll find out in the lawsuit or something like that. And fortunately, I because I was breaking into the entertainment space, I had a lawyer and and the director's guild behind me, and uh the threat of that coming back to him, he may he disappeared. But sometimes people do that too. They'll they'll sue you or threaten to sue you. And I found out that this guy had been doing this, had been going through photograp going through photographers every season, threatening to sue them. They would do all this work because they were scared to get sued, and um, and that's how he extracted more value um from you know very little money. Uh that is definitely not fair, true.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

That is unfair.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

No, that's that's illegal actually. Unfortunately, if somebody sues you, you have to answer the lawsuit and that costs money too.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

So abilities to follow it. Interesting. I'm trying to think of like what is a I mean, I've I think I've worked for free for so much. I think being a musician is especially in this day and age where everything's streamable, it just feels like we're working for free all the time, anyways. Um unless we're like selling merchandise. I'm always like, oh I could make money if I was a clothing shop that just sold merchandise of my band. Yeah. Um so I it's an interesting thing because I do I do have to always remember, I'm like, what I do is worth something, and it's important to like remember that, especially after years and years of just like putting a five where people can pay ten dollars a month to listen to it, and I get like five cents, you know, like 0.001 cents for like so it's an interesting thing, like how to to keep in your head like, hey, the the things I do are worth it. But what's interesting is actually the work that I do with like doing breath work and like working with frequencies and giving sound baths and stuff, that's where I've actually really like honed in on this because I do get a lot of requests for like private sessions and something I've done a lot of things for free. I've done a lot of things that I think are important for free, or you know, like I've um don't you know donated my time for like raffles and things like that for important causes and very much.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yeah, I've done a lot of donations.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

But that's that's I think that's definitely but I also like have been, you know, I've also like been asked to do stuff where I'm like, okay, this is like a corporate sponsored thing, and you're trying to pay me like $100 to show up from across town with all my music gear, play like an hour and a half sound bath, and then go back to like 50 people and you want to pay me $100.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Like, no, that's a no.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

You know, I'm like, that's like as much as I would make if I was just like playing at a studio or something. And but it's interesting because I do the thing is there is a lot of people who will take that, you know, especially somebody starting out, like what we talked about. If you're young and you're like, hey, I'm starting out and I'm just I need money, they'll do that. But I'm like, yeah, then go find that person because I do think, you know, I'm not, I don't think like I'm not the kind of person that's like, you're devaluing our entire industry. It's like, no, this these are the kind of gigs that are then fine for younger people to do, and they'll see how unsustainable that is, you know, like they're not gonna do that forever. But we're always gonna have that, you know, we're always gonna have this. On the other end of that, you also have people who are like overcharging and saying we're like, no, who is I find the people that are overcharging are kind of scam artists anyway.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

I mean, you know, there's they're just they're just gross people, so I think we should do a follow-up episode of this on um how to find self-worth as a creative. And there's a uh therapist that I know that would be good to interview about this, and then you and I can do some bumpers around that and sort of.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

And then she's gonna like live therapise us. Oh my god, no, no, that that's and we're gonna tell her everything that we've just said, or we're just gonna have her listen to this episode, and then she's just gonna give us saying no now.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Like I'm gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

She's gonna give us feedback on to like what she thinks what which issue which parent to blame.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

I can't I can't see a more efficient way to disenfranchise our listenership, Kimmy, than to have them listen to the phone.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

I feel like they would think that was amazing. If I will if I was listening to a podcast and they're like, okay, we're gonna have a therapist weigh in on our most recent episode, and then the therapist is just like we are legends in our own mind.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Kimmy, I think we should call it a day.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Yeah, you know, it is. I mean, by me, it's 7:30, so it is like PM, so it is almost the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Let's just call it the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Let's call it the end of my day and the beginning of your day.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Good to see you, Kimmy.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Always good to see you, Lou.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Take care.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Bye. This is our standard boilerplate. Chaos and Creativity is produced by Jeremy Johnson.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

It's edited by Alexandra Covey.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

And we'd like to thank our sponsor, our only sponsor, and our fabulous sponsor, Blinkbid Software, fitting and producing software for creative people.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

And anyone who is cooler than anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Me too.