SPEAKER_00 0:23

Hi, Kimmy.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hello, Lou.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

I'm doing great. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:28

I'm fabulous. Um loving that. Yeah, well, so for today's mini episode, I wanted to talk about Kitty Hawk versus AI. And for everybody who doesn't know, unless you're some of the few who used to hang out at my house on Kitty Hawk Avenue in Los Angeles, it was a nexus of creativity there. Do you remember those days?

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Of course I did. It was like such a very special place.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

It was a yeah, it was a good place. And I was thinking about it in the context of the ideas. Like we used to have big parties there. Remember, I mean, we'd set up the the tables in the in the backyard there, like 10, 15 long, and I'd make a huge vata pasta for everybody. And um it was it was great. I mean, it was a good time, but it used to attract a very diverse group of people. And among the conversations that happened were all the great ideas that got turned into pictures and plays and various other things. Do you remember all that?

SPEAKER_01 1:31

I mean, I remember some of it. For some of that, but I obviously wasn't there, but I also, interestingly enough, later when you were spending more time in San Francisco and I would like use the space if I was going through touring or whatever, it also still had that vibe. It just had that kind of feeling that certain spaces have that just invite in collaboration and creativity and fun. I think also there was just something to be said for that time, anyways. But I think like having spaces that are not in a bar or at a restaurant, but that are people's homes, but that also have kind of the fun feeling of being out and about, like there's something to that, you know?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, absolutely right. Well, and also to sort of set the stage for our audience, the My Place of Kitty Cock had a Heidi Key. And if you knew somebody that knew me well and needed a place to crash, um like I came, flew in from New York. I was shooting in New York, I flew in, and there was a lovely young woman sitting on my front porch stunning herself. And she said, Oh, you staying here too? And I said, Well, this is my place. And she said, Oh, well, Jenny said I could use, I said, No, totally wide open, absolutely right. The house rules are um when I'm in town, you get the couch, and when I'm not in town, you can have the bedroom because it was a one-bedroom place, and you have to leave a bottle of bourbon if you stay for more than two days.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

And it was it was a good place. And the reason I'm bringing all this up is not really to go down amnesia lane as much as I want to talk about how random gatherings generate a lot of thought, and those thoughts turn into ideas, which then turn into art on a lot of level, or they contribute to art, is probably the best way to put it.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

And as I've been thinking about AI and what it can't do, and what it probably will never be able to do, at least not in my lifetime, is make creative decisions. And this is inspired by a piece that I saw, um, which I'll put in the show notes. It was it was inspiring in the fact that every decision that's made in a movie, every decision that's made in a in a piece of music, is based on the experience of the individual. And AI has no individuality.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

And I think as people are starting to panic a little bit about AI, and AI is definitely wiping out low-level jobs, you know, one of the things I think about, honestly, is especially in the post-production space, is if AI is doing all the menial work and you're not hiring rookies to do the menial work, where are you gonna pull from to find your next talent? Because I think people who survive the menial tasks and and perform at a certain level sort of get tapped for moving up within the company. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

100%. Well, I mean, I feel like there's so many great questions and things you just opened up. Well, first of all, I think that that's where we will really see nep the rise even more so of nepotism, but which will also lead to like a lack of actual great things getting made because as you said, there's something about experience and connection that actually creates the moments that we want to put on a screen or in a song. And so if you just have like these uh, you know, basically people coming in with not actually having the experience of working their way up from something and having these experiences of like being in the trenches together, I think there's like so many things that that that creates a lack of, like it creates a lack of loyalty, camaraderie, you know, because camaraderie is important. Yeah, how many stories do you hear about people being like, well, we knew each other when we were like background actors, or we were just like we're you know, you you especially you hear it less and less because I do actually think that's already happened.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

I I totally agree with you in the sense I think that all the time too, especially in the creative industries. I also think I'm like, how is um how are all what are all those people doing for money now? Is everyone just driving Uber? Um and I also think it's really interesting because I I really like I really think about AI a lot because there's a lot of it that I I see how it's so helpful for me.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Do you do you think do you think about AI in in in in a fearful sense or in a in I'm interested sense? Because I also have a uh I I have no problem with AI. I don't, but I I don't like the people well Sam Altman. I don't like Sam Yeah, yeah. No, I I don't like Sam Altman. I mean the he to my opinion, he's he's the ultimate grifter. I mean he bought yes, he I mean this I I saw this background piece on him and and I think it was in the New Yorker, and it was kind of like that. Yeah, it was like he he created a company, lied by a factor of hundreds of thousands of how many users it was, and he still sold it and he made millions upon millions of dollars, which is I think which is wrong with the whole upper 1% or that whole that whole Silicon Valley vibe. Whereas if you make something and you shift it and you make a bunch of money off it, that scene is successful. Whereas the old, old Silicon Valley back when Wozniak and Jobs were starting Apple and Bill Gates was starting Microsoft, was it was a meritocracy. You created this thing and then you were rewarded for it.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

And except for like, except for like we also know that Steve Jobs was like, listen, there's I we know how Apple we have without Steve Jobs being an asshole, like being like the maybe undiagnosed autistic asshole that he was, but like he was also like he also cut people out and made these decisions. I just think it was it's it was just different than what we're seeing now, which I don't think Steve Jobs was like, I want to control the entire world. He was like, Yeah, I want to make something really cool, and um, everyone else is like getting in in the way of my vision.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

No, that's fair, but I I don't think you I think I think he truly wanted to change the world. I don't think he wanted to control the world.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

No, no, that's what I mean. He did that's what I mean. Like Sam these what we're seeing now is people who want power and control. And I think that Steve Jobs wanted to truly change the world, which he did. And so we're just in we're in a different era of technology, but you ask me, like, what do I think about? I actually like have multiple layers because I'm curious about it. Um I am curious about machines in general because I love machines, I love computers. AI is fascinating to me, like on a philosophical level, because you can go really deep with it, you know, because people are like, they're not people, that's just they're just responding to like what we give them. And I'm like, well, as humans, we also kind of are just responding to like what we've been giving and how we've been raised the input we've been given. Yes, absolutely. And so I'm always like, what makes us different? And so go going back to this original thing that we wanted to talk about with Kitty Hawk, is there's like a little spark that I think that AI does, I don't know if they'll ever have it, it doesn't have it yet, which is when you're sitting in a group with people, like when you put a group of AI together, they're not um interchanging their emotional experiences with one another. Correct. That's an excellent point. Yeah, they're just exchanging um like the facts or the things that have been fed into them. Like if there is an exchange, it's that. And that's different than human emotion. And I think that this is like where obviously AI, even though it can factually maybe, you know, understand why human emotions does this, this, this, it doesn't feel them. And so that is like the feeling that we get when we're with one another and we get excited about something, or we like share an idea and then someone gives us feedback that changes that idea completely. That is something that feels very special. And it's not that I I've had like conversations with AI where it's like given me an idea where I'm like, oh, I didn't even think to frame it that way. But it's once again not the same feeling as when I'm like have a really inspiring evening with my friends where we all just leave being like, wow, you know, like when you have a gathering where it's just like well, it's it's a gathering of people, it's a gathering of originality in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, and everybody has an original take on it, and the the capacity to be empathetic to like when you and I talk, we disagree on so much stuff. And um, yet we are empathetic towards each other, and we're both gleaning something for the conversation because of that empathy, of that capacity for emotional awareness. And I think that the idea that AI is going to control the world and and become sentient in some level, I I just don't see it.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

I don't see it happening because feelings are very have you have you read that Project 2027 thing at all? No, it's basically it's it's quite fascinating. So my sister is um like very much like one of the smartest people I know. And I she we love your sister. Yeah, she's we love your sister, yeah. You know, she's she studied um philosophy and ethics on like a collegiate track. Like she's just one of those people who understands tech, and so she's the one who told me about this. And she was like, Well, it's basically all these AI scientists who left all the AI companies because they were like, hey, there's not enough safeguards being put on this. Yes. And it's really fascinating because it's not actually about the emotional side of AI taking over everything, it's more there's like two, the kind of two big concepts are that either AI, the most powerful AI, can actually take over everything, and whoever's in control of it is gonna be in control of everything. But the other thing that, you know, when we talk about like, oh, them being sentient having their own opinion, it's not even that, it's more that they are trained to be analytical and look at things from like a how can we solve this? How can we solve this? How can we solve this? And so if you give them the big picture of like, how do we save the world? Yes, and they're like, Oh, we get we get rid of the parasite on the planet, we get rid of the thing that we actually get rid of the parasite. Oh wait, actually the humans are the parasite because like they're the you know, but that's like that's kind of like the the gist of it. Yeah, the thing is, I'm like, there's so many other things that we that are like in the in the works that could be used. That I'm like, this is one thing I actually don't have the time to have an um anxiety attack about. Um so I just, you know, because it's all it is, there's so much other stuff that can happen. But you know, I think it's interesting because there is just so many levels of the AI conversation. You have people who are really like, don't use it for anything.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

And I'm like Right, which I totally disagree with.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

I mean I just you just can't at this point because it's actually.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Of course, of course you can't. It is amazing. And you know, it's I looked up a topic. I was doing something with my stereo at home, and and I looked up just using a Google search or and it was I was assaulted by all this crap articles that were, you know, and it's just kind of like okay, this is going nowhere. So I read 15 paragraphs, opening paragraphs of 15 different articles, which were all just marketing speak for the product they were hogging. And so I used the AI for it and it distilled it down into like, oh, okay, this I can understand and get my head around it. And AI wasn't 100% right, but it was enough right that I could be like, this puts me in a direction without having to be assaulted by a bunch of ads and a bunch of really poorly written articles, which were just so to get my attention anyway. And it and I think that's where we're in a zone with AI where that's going to be. That will change as soon as they because they're AI is such a money loser right now.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Yeah. That's the other thing. I'm I'm really interested in just like what it develops into because uh they don't they're not making money that they the money they need to make off of it, you know. And I think it's an interesting thing because I have this conversation a lot. Like a friend, I don't know if we talked about this. I've talked about this a couple times. A friend of mine was like, Hey, um she asked me a question and I was like, Oh, I don't know. And then I was like, I'm just gonna ask the AI. And she's like, Oh my god, don't ask the AI that like takes so much time. Oh yeah, we're trying to find a restaurant in a certain place. And I was like, I'm just gonna ask, I don't know this area at all. I'm just gonna like ask like what's like along the like U Bon. And she was like, Don't do that. And I was like, why? And she's like, that takes up so much water. And I was and then she went on her phone and for 10 minutes was on Google Maps, and I was like, okay, spending 10 minutes on Google Maps versus like one query into I like literally looked it up and was like, yeah, no, actually 10 minutes of Google Maps is gonna take more water than one query into Chat GPT. Yeah. Because I think when we think about like, oh, all of these data centers, et cetera, et cetera, for sure there's individual used to be factored into it, but really who's using that much data is like militaries, big companies. Like once again, I am like this is this is like the plastic straw all over again where everyone's like shaming you for not using a wood straw or something when I'm like this is a small thing where I'm like, yes, for sure we can. I'm I'm all about using less plastic, but we can completely as hum like singular humans do so much. But if a company is like continuing to just like create this garbage, then no, totally, absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

And I think that there's something to be said for I can't help wondering if your friend was like uh saying like you're using so much water or whatever it is that you're using by doing this query that took 15, five or half a second or whatever it was, if she's articulating her fear of AI.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

100%.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Well, do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 15:10

But it's everyone, and I think it's interesting because I'm like, hey, we're all still like watching Netflix, we're all still on our phones. Like, if if water, if the which water is a resource that we should all be like thinking about absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I live in California, trust me, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah, every day I can fill up my my water bottle with fresh water. I'm like, wow, what a freaking amazing thing that this is just available. But you know, it's interesting that as humans, this is like we can so compartmentalize where we're like, oh, it's just the AI that's doing this. And as long as we don't use the AI, we can have do everything else, we can eat meat for every meal, we can like watch that like 24 hours.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

It's like the villain de jour, man. I mean, it really is just kind of the villain de jour. But you know, bringing it back to Kitty Hawk, I was thinking about um a particular time where I had a bunch of friends come knocking on my door at like 11:30 at night, and you know, I was in my bed reading, and it's kind of like, let's go. And we went to it, we went to Cantors Deli, and we had a conversation that led to me photographing um do you do you know Miranda Lee Richard? She's in your business.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

She's a yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah, so I shot Miranda on Dry Lake Bed with welding goggles on. And it's the most random shot, but it came from this conversation at Cantor's at like one o'clock in the morning. And I was I was just thinking about that because I'm I printed an old picture that I'm putting up on the walls. I remodeled my office here, and I was thinking about those days and those moments of inspiration. And I still have them, but they're far less because there's far less far less gatherings of people.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

You know, it's so funny that we're talking about this because you know, I'm literally reading a book right now called Um The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker. It's such a good book because I also have been really thinking about this a lot. I've been thinking a lot a lot about how like I have such insane, beautiful memories from when I was younger, and I'm like, I don't feel like I'm making those same kind of memories right now.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

So true. That is so true. That's where my anxiety lies.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, and I'm like, this, I don't like, I don't think this has to do with like age because I'm 40. You know what I mean? I'm sure you know, you are like 18 years older than me.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

19, 19, I'm 60.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

So like for sure, you're like, oh yeah, when I was 40, I still have have memories of it being like amazing time. So I know it's not just because I'm like 40 and I'm done with my life, but ideally, you know, the game over, nothing's fun anymore. But I really do think it's because we have we've we've turned like the art, like we don't gather anymore. You know, we don't really gather. And if we do gather, it's like this, it's like no one just goes to somebody's house anymore at like 9 p.m. and is like, let's go have an adventure. Because like that somehow we because we have so much with so many ways of contacting each other, that's like an uncouth thing to do. But completely right, even me, like it's hard to think of it.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

But also feet featured, I mean, think about this. So I had um Callie Householder, who's a producer based out of Atlanta, um, who is a good friend and an amazing, amazing producer. I flew her out to California um because she was helping us with the project out here. And rather than take her out two nights in a row, we had to revert the house.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

And it it was so much more fun. And I remember how going out used to be the special thing, but going out is so expensive now that it's not special anymore. It's anxiety-inducing.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

100%.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

You know, and it's it's and and then you start looking at the bill, and like you know, in California, at least in San Francisco, we have a certain percentage that goes on top of the bill for medical for the uh servers, which I'm not necessarily opposed to, but it's kind of like it it just it's it suddenly becomes like this list of things that are adding to the bill, which are making it, and then they're kind of ushering you out because they have to turn the table quickly in order to make their money.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

I mean, I think I think going out is just such a different thing now because also I mean, we could go on and on why things are more expensive and why like then it's more expensive to, anyways. We that's like a whole different pocket. That's a whole different story, yeah. That like it is even here in Berlin where it's always been like super cheap. I mean, our American friends come and they're like, it's so cheap here, and we're like, it's not compared to even like six years ago. Really? Um, it's like doubled, you know, which is still for here, you know, you're like still cheaper ever than the US. But I agree, agree that like it's not really so fun to go out when you're like, okay, I guess I'll have a beer for $17, you know. Whatever it is, you know, I don't know. Here it's still relatively cheap. But the thing that people like to do here is that I really love is people love sitting outside in the summertime. Um, we have spades, which are basically they're called Spadekauf, which is like late shop, um because they're open usually like very late or all night long. And so what people will do is they'll go to the Spady and get a beer for like $1.50 or $2. And then there's tables in front of the Spadey where people go and hang out and drink their beer. So it's not a bar, it's like it's really cool. And so I do love this, especially in the summer in Berlin, that you actually still have this feeling a little bit more of gathering. But I think it's also I always see everyone on their phones, even when they're together. And so, and I am so guilty of also being on my phone. I'm trying to be really like, I'm trying to be way more mindful that when it was with my friends that it put my phone away, or I've even talked to my friends like when we're with each other, let's like not look at our phones.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

I have successfully um flipped the so they there's a thing called gap time. Yeah. And gap time is like you're standing in a line or something like that, and we all default to grabbing our phones. Yeah. And for uh just over probably close to two years now, I have I've completely stopped grabbing my phone during gap time.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

That's this this is amazing because it's your creative time. It's actually when your brain forms creative thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

And and I can tell you that my my creative output has elevated as a result of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Oh my god, but can we all just appreciate like lose my ADHD in this episode? Like, can we all please appreciate like off the rocker, we are covering every subject in blood.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Totally, 100%. No, absolutely. Well, I mean, but it it all kind of comes down to the art of the gathering because um to bring it back to our our initial topic. Our very first topic is hours ago. Hours ago, is that uh I think that by putting your phone down and noticing people, um, and then for example, I noticed somebody needed help with something and I met a new friend because they helped them out. They were trying to get the door and they had all these drinks, and oh, thanks for. Oh, do you know so and so? And it was it's there, that's I think the art of the gathering extends beyond just actually gathering. It means being sort of present.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Well, this is like what this is what this book is super about. It's like really interesting because she doesn't she talks about like the intention of the gathering, she talks about like who's coming to the gathering and that you have to like be like when you invite people for for. Specific intentional thing that you're doing, you also have to think about who's coming and who's not gonna come. Right. And like it's really interesting because I think a lot of that stuff used to happen automatically, but I think just being super intentional, like, okay, I'm gonna invite a bunch of people that I think are super creative and amazing. I'm gonna ask them to come to my house to exchange ideas and and drink wine and listen to records and see what happens and ask everyone not to bring their phone and like see what happens, you know? Yeah. Um, because it's almost like now we have to like create the the spaces and the moments that happened more organically when we were younger or when it was a different time in the human um.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Well, I mean it reminds it reminds me of cafe culture, which is sort of what Kitty Hawk was. It was sort of like a residential cafe in a weird way. Yeah. You know, and it was like it was a place to gather, it was a a great place to capture ideas. There was definitely something about the vibe of the place and the fact that it was near the airport and people were always in coming and going. Coming and going. And everybody used to park at my place and have me take them to the airport because it's free parking, basically.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yep. And um Yeah, it's I think it's so funny because I think this is like one of the reasons that you know a lot of us, like elder millennials, Gen X's like look back so fondly because I'm like, okay, I know everyone looks back on their time fondly, but I do think there's there's something about these gathering spaces, and like I think the future is like bringing these gathering spaces back intentionally where we didn't have we didn't have them intentionally. We were just like living our best life, and now we have to like reintroduce this intentionally so it becomes once again an afterthought.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Okay, and you know, and and I'd and I'm not here to vilify the cell phone or the the mobile phone um at all. God no, but I think that we I think understanding what it is and understanding that there's an addictive quality to it, and understanding that it is sort of robbing us of some some of the time that we're out and about, and some of the time that you there's gap time that you can sort of be present and sort of understand what's going on around you. Um I think that's that's important too. And and because of it's it is a relatively new technology, it's you know, 2007 is when the iPhone came out. Is that it? 2007 or 2009, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Oh my gosh, because you bought me my first one as did I? Yeah, for to for Blinkbid as assistant. Wow. You're a great boss, you're a great boss, but also like I blame you.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Okay, well, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

I blame you. You're the reason I don't have fun memories anymore. Thanks a lot, Dad.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Oh my god. Here we go, here we go. Um but yeah, so I just kitty hawk versus AI, I think to wrap it up is this kind of like one of those things where remembering the art of gathering, which is what again we should call this episode. Yes. And I think that some of the best ideas you can have are gonna come from people who are live who are reacting to what you're saying over a glass of wine. And if you don't drink a glass of uh flavored soda.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yes, or even just a glass of water while you still can.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

While you still can. Oh my god. Well, not dystopian thought, let's call it a day.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Bye!

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Bye. This is our standard boilerplate. Chaos and creativity is produced by Jeremy Johnson.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

It's edited by Alexander Alpine.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

And we'd like to thank our sponsor, our only sponsor, and our fabulous sponsor, Link Fit Software, Fitting and Precinct Software for Creative People.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

And anyone who's cooler than anyone else.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

That's what I'm saying.