SPEAKER_01 0:15

Amy.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Hello.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:18

I'm doing great. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Uh I'm actually in a great mood. Yesterday, not so much.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Okay. Uh is there a reason that you were in a bad mood yesterday?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Um, I just a couple of things triggered me. And when I was looking for a topic for us to talk about today, I was at Redwheel Coffee, the official caffeinators of the Chaos and Creativity podcast here in Marin County. Um, Grace, who's learning to make latte art on top of the foam, was is struggling a little bit. She's just she's kind of getting it in, but she's getting better and better with everything. And she suggested that we talk about what happens when you get bad latte art on your latte. And I said, that's like one of those dumb ass things that can trigger a mood swing in the wrong direction. And then I thought about how moody you and I are. What?

SPEAKER_02 1:06

No, I am uh completely even keeled.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Yeah, so am I. It's I'm a legend in my own mind.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah, 100%. Ask anybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Ask anybody. Exactly right. So um, but I would also say that um you and I have been around long enough that we now recognize how um a mood spiral, which is something you suggested earlier, can sort of tank a professional environment.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

And and let's talk a little bit about like why it triggers us and how we get out of it now that we're more grown up and realize how to get out of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Yeah. Well, do you want to start? Um You're like, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Not really, but I do, but I will. Uh I I think so. Here's a really mundane one. Traffic. Traffic can trigger a bad mood, especially when and there's a difference between driving on the weekend and driving um during the week. During the week it tends to be more commuters and they kind of get it. And on the weekend, people are kind of like, oh my god, look, I'm behind the wheel of a car. And that can trigger a bad mood. An unnecessary bad mood.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 2:25

100%.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

So um I think the way to start with that is when you get into your car, you just have to accept the fact that there's gonna be traffic. Yeah, and you're probably in a reasonably nice car. Even if you're not, you probably have a reasonably nice stereo system.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

And just understand that it's more time to listen to the music. Funny enough, when I moved to Northern California from Los Angeles, I was in far less traffic than I was when I was living in LA. And I found that I had to find different opportunities to daydream for work because in LA, when you're sitting in traffic, you get the music on, you know you're in traffic, you just kind of get into that rhythm. And I had plenty of time to sort of daydream in my head about things I was writing or creating or something like that. And then when I get to Northern California, I found that because I was traveling places more quickly and more efficiently and shorter distances, that that daydreaming space had gone and I had to sort of like provide it for myself. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yeah, that's really interesting. So how about you?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

What triggers you?

SPEAKER_02 3:38

What triggers me? Um God, so many things trigger me. Um, like sometimes it's just like, you know, what triggers me is like sometimes just my expectations trigger me when they're not being met. Like really weirdly, when he said that, I can think of one thing. I went to I went with my partner to Italy for like a wedding. And I remember like we had talked about when we arrived, like we had like a day before the wedding. He was like, I have to make a phone call. So in my head, I was like, okay, we're gonna arrive, we're gonna find a cute cafe, he's gonna make a phone call, I'm gonna journal, it's gonna be super romantic, blah, blah, blah. We're in Italy. Obviously, that's not what happened. We could not find a freaking cute cafe. Sven was stressed out because of his phone call. I it was just like not, it wasn't anything like that. And I it triggered me that I was like, this entire trip is gonna be awful, which is sometimes like when I have a bad thing, it starts to be like everything's gonna be bad.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

It cascades, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:32

It cascades. And yeah, um, I think what really helps me actually is having uh a breath work and meditation practice because it sometimes allows me just pull out for a second. So interesting. You know, like I'll just do like if I feel if I feel myself because for me it really shows up as anxiety. So I start feeling really body anxious. So anyone who has anxiety knows like you feel it just like in your whole body, and you start feeling really like, oh my God, it it's an awful feeling. It's like just drinking too much coffee.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Um, and so whenever I notice that, I'm always like, okay, I'm gonna just do a little bit of breath work and pull out and then just take a moment and just be like, this is just this moment. This is just this moment, and this moment is gonna pass. And kind of like it's almost just like rewiring my brain because sometimes also when you have a bad moment, when you have something that's viral in you, it begins to color everything afterwards, right? Especially if you don't let it go.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

That's kind of the thing, and that's the mood spiral that we were talking about. It's not really a mood spiral as much as it's you've now tainted everything that you look at in your day. But I want to touch on what you'd mentioned, um, that you'd set up expectations because I have somebody's very close to me who we've gone to do things together, and they've had these expectations for what that moment was gonna be like or what that that time is gonna be like. And when it doesn't go that way, it really sends them off, you know, really turns them off and really gets them angry. And I I think that it's better to be adaptive than expectant. Like adapt to what happens to you in the moment. You go out with best intentions, obviously. But when things shift around, all right, well, how do we turn this into something fun? Like, and I'm I'm 90% of the time really good at that, but the 10% that I'm not, it's it's a disaster. I mean, I I can pout like an eight-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Yeah, you know, 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

So um I think that there's uh expectations is something to sort of check in on if you're if you're going to a party or you're going out to dinner or something like that, and you have this expectation of what it's going to be like and it doesn't go that way. Check in with yourself and said, well, what's being presented to me, maybe this is gonna be better. Oftentimes it is.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

I try to also just it's not that I try not to have expectations, I just um try to like manage my expectations and also just be more I have like a way of thinking sometimes, which is a little bit neurodivergent, where if I get stuck in a in a pattern or a structure, right? It becomes like very like 911 if it if that pattern or structure is disrupted somehow. And so one of my interesting, okay, like a big work that I have to do is that I just have to um be flexibility, you know, and allow allowing for flexibility. Because the one thing that I do notice is we were talking about this earlier, like uh how this affects like a professional environment, you know, when you're like let's say with if you're on tour with your band, like and you're disappointed by something and it like it's outwardly an energy, it is gonna seep into your whole band. It's gonna seep into everyone and it's gonna color everyone's experience, and maybe you're gonna your reaction to something is gonna move spiral someone else. And so it's like a pretty important thing that you catch that early on. Um, especially if you are like uh there's some people that just are like amplifiers of their emotions, and and we all know those people. Like when they're happy and when they're excited, it's like the best time ever to be around them. Completely right. If they're not feeling good, it's literally like walking into a black hole, you know, where you're like all happiness strains.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah, and you're and you're and you you you can set up a situation where people are walking around eggshells around you, which is you know something I've been exposed to and something when I realize that I'm doing it, I really hate that about myself. Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Because 100%.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Well, people are like, oh my God, you know, what's you know, because I'm not a small person and and I have a big presence, and if it's jubilant and happy, it's it's great to be around. But if it's really negative, it's it's kind of like, well, is this gonna blow up or is it not gonna blow up? Or do you know what I'm saying? And I don't want people feeling like that around me.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

No, no, no, no. You don't, I mean, that's like a it's an it's and it it's not conducive to creativity, it's not conducive to no, it is is completely selfish. I mean, yeah, and it's and I and I feel it. Like I I also uh like I said, when you do group projects, you you learn also to kind of navigate that in other people because it is sometimes you're like, wow, it's really easy to get dragged down into this like emotional current. You're absolutely and and it's very exhausting not to, you know. So I really feel like I try to, if I have something that happens to me on tour, especially that is upsetting to me, I try to actually like compartmentalize and be like, you can get upset about this or deal with this later when you're by yourself and not in a van or performing with other people. And that is like that is a skill. Like that is something that I have had to learn of like, let's put it in the box for now. The important thing I think is if you put something in a box, don't leave it in the box. You have to unpack it, but like you can unpack it later, maybe when you are by yourself or with a partner or a friend that you can't, or a therapist for some things where it's like appropriate. Cause I also think like um, God, I mean, this is a completely other topic, but I also think like there is a time and place to like emotionally like load onto people, you know? And there's a time and place to be like, let's unpack this. And it's maybe not like when you're on tour or on a shoot or in the middle of a creative project, because it's a lot of energy for somebody to receive that, and it also takes a lot of energy to share that.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

So it does. No, you're absolutely right. But and you have to, and you know, everybody a little pity party goes a long way, especially if you're doing it by yourself.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

But it's one of those things that you you kind of have to feel sorry for yourself for you know, give yourself an hour. Yeah. Kind of curl up in a ball on your couch or someplace and and then let it go. Okay, it's I felt sorry for myself. Okay, nothing's changed after I've adopted this mood. So maybe I'll I'll I'll elevate a little bit and and um and not drag everybody down with me.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

But I think um we should talk about ways that sometimes um this isn't a cure all by any stretch, but ways that you can sort of snap yourself out of the the initial funk, the heavy funk.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

And one of the things that I do is stop doing everything. Literally stop doing everything. Because when you're in one of those moods, no matter what you're doing, if it goes wrong even slightly and everything goes wrong all the time, you're it's just gonna add to it. Well, of course, well, of course, well, of course the will, of course, mantra, right? Yeah, so stop doing everything. Um music can elevate.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Oh, yes, music is powerful, very, very powerful.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

You know, find a song that's nostalgic or your favorite or whatever. Try not to find an angry song. Yes, you know, but um, and then another thing that is also really critical is movement. Get yourself out, go for a walk, breathe in, breathe out. If you can't go for a walk, do something that requires like find some stairs, anything. Yeah, it's amazing what 10 minutes of movement can do.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

100%. And also like changing your environment, you know, by moving.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Absolutely right, 100%. That's perfect, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Because sometimes it's also like you're stuck in your little cloud and it's just around you, and sometimes you can just walk out of the room. Or for me, it's really like what if I can like walk somewhere that is green, yeah and be like or hug a tree, essentially, where you're like, oh yeah, it's fine. Um, that is that can really sometimes it's like, oh yeah, it's not that it's not that bad, it's not that big of a deal.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Right. It's interesting because they found in during the Vietnam War, um, many of the soldiers got addicted to heroin. And when they came back to the United States, because it was a completely different environment, like look, smell, feel, everything else like that, they the the addiction stopped. Yeah. And and this wasn't across the board. There's some some people who came back that were you know struggling and had a lot of challenges, but there was a component of that out there. And so changing your environment's a really, really good idea.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Um, also something as simple as a glass of water.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Hydrating, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

I always tell people like when whenever you're having any sort of like mental, heady like breakdown of any sort, do body stuff. Like, do really simple things like breathing, walking, eating, like just anything like I have a body drinking. I'm like, I have a body, yeah, and I'm gonna feed this body's needs. And I also sometimes when I have a mental spiral, I actually have to check in with myself too. I'm like, have you slept enough? Have you eaten enough? Have you drink enough? And sometimes also if you're a woman, like, where are you in your cycle? Because that can sometimes really, you know, that that can really impact. I mean, sometimes I have these really out of nowhere, I'll just be like a depressed and I'll be like, oh my gosh, what's happening? And then I'll just like look at my phone and I'm like, oh, okay. I'm in I'm in this part of my cycle. That makes so much sense. And then also sometimes having that knowledge takes you out of like how deep of a despair it is, because you're like, oh, this is not just coming from like nowhere. This is just like a f this is like a chemical reaction, a hormonal reaction in my body, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Well, I think also understanding is a big part of it too. It's I think sometimes anxiety can come up from not understanding why this mood's happening. Do you know what I'm saying? And I think that's I think that's you know, if you can try to oh, like in your case, you're in your part of your cycle. In my case, it's kind of like, you know, I've had three days of very, very gloomy days, and I can either let it affect me because I love the sun and I love the blue sky, or it can be like, well, maybe this story that I'm writing now has a gloomy part of it, and I can sort of live it and embrace it.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

And it really is a matter of perspective. Again, none of this is a cure all, and oftentimes it's not easy. And you know, Kimmy and I are not therapists, so don't look at this phrase. But I've had many.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

So had many. So I feel like that counts. Sometimes I'm like, could I be a therapist based on the therapy, amount of therapy I've had? Also, the amount of I do feel like I give a lot of advice to my friends, but I'm like, I wonder if you should just actually go see a therapist because I'm just repeating to you things that my therapist has told me.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Right, right. I've actually stopped giving advice, uh, relationship advice.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Oh, yeah, relationship advice I never give because I'm like, I don't know, I don't know enough about this from both sides to give the right advice.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Well, not only that, but it's it's one of the things where it's it's um you don't know the complete story to your point. But also, I think that um we are susceptible to choosing a side.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

And the advice that we give has to do with that side. So when somebody asks me for relationship advice, I said, look, I don't do domestic.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Also, it's it's such a it is such like a when you give advice on relationships, or also if you're like, yeah, I hate that guy, you should definitely break up with them and then they stay together.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Oh god, no.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

I not a great, not great, not great.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah, I I did that to a friend of mine and they ended up getting married. So cool.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

And you're like, oh, I'm so happy for you.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

I'm so happy. That's not totally expected that.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah, no kidding. Yeah. Um, one of the things that I found interesting is in a lot of the um sort of like financial self-help type space, they talk about, oh, well, give up your daddy latte because you're spending six dollars a day. And I think that is the worst, most bullshit advice you could ever give anybody. Because the routine of getting out of your normal workspace and going someplace else and interacting with people is so positively triggering that it's it's it's dumb to think that this advice is being given and uh people are kind of like, okay, I'm gonna save my $5 a day or six dollars a day or whatever. And I'm gonna stay in my space where I'm not particularly feeling great, whereas it's just it's just ridiculous. It's a great, great ritual. Yeah. And I think it's um, I this is what I hate about self-help stuff. So because it's it's it's stupid.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

It's not, it's not stupid. Um, I love self-help stuff, but like I think a lot of disagree on this. But I think there's a lot of bullshit in self-help work. I mean, I just um I think there's there's always tidbits where I'm like, yes, I love that. And then there's like so much where I'm like, this is a croc of BS. Or I'm always like charlatans, um, charlatans. Uh but yeah, I feel I definitely agree with you. Like rituals are such an important way to like submit goodness into your day and having things that like you know make going to your favorite coffee shop. Because also, like, if you have a ritual you love and you're having a bad day, you can like return to that ritual and be like, this is something that my brain associates with having a good time or feeling good. And so it's like go to that ritual, go to your coffee shop, go take a walk to like the park where there's a bird, you know, where the birds are and just look at the birds. Like these things, this is why rituals are amazing because they can really help help us sometimes get out of our mood, anyways.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Yeah, no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Thanks for listening to our self-help podcast, Chaos and Creativity. You're welcome, everybody. We're now a self-help podcast. We no longer talk about creativity, we're just talking about how to make your life better. Also, we're we are starting a course, how to become a millionaire in five days, um, through being a self-help guru.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

So you're crazy. You've lost your mind, you know that, right? You're having a mood.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

It's because I had like uh it's I'm having a mood spectral out of this world, but it's probably because I it's like 6 44 p.m. here. Yeah. And I had a coffee at four that had like three shots of espresso. She was making it, and I was like, I don't even ever drink three shots of espresso, but I'm just gonna try this one time. And now I'm like, oh my god, this is what three shots of espresso. Espresso is in your body. No wonder people are like off their rocker all the time.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Yeah, kidding me.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Well, um, I knew you were gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

I just I don't think you're gonna sleep at all tonight, but that's that's kind of your problem, not my problem.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah, that you're like, this seems like a kimmy problem, not a loop problem. Well, next time you hear us on a podcast, I'll let you know if I slept at all.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Absolutely right. So um, all right, go get your latte art on and I don't need another one. I do. So kudos to Grace for the suggestion. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Bye, everyone.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Bye, everyone. This is our standard boilerplate. Chaos and Creativity is produced by Jeremy Johnson.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

It's edited by Alexandra Covey.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

And we'd like to thank our sponsor, our only sponsor, and our fabulous sponsor, Linkfit Software, Fitting and Producing Software for Creative People.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

And anyone who's cooler than anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Me too.